Dr. Joe Tatta | The Healing Pain Podcast

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Medicine #218

Pain Science Education discusses the treatment of persistent pain. Learn how to use the brain, body, mind, and behavior to reduce pain and improve physical and mental well-being. This podcast offers free training for physical therapists, healthcare professionals, and people with pain. Dr. Joe Tatta is a physical therapist, educator, author, and pain researcher. He is known for his contribution to integrative pain care and for championing the safe and effective treatment of chronic pain. With over 20 years of clinical expertise, Dr. Joe is dedicated to converting cutting-edge pain science into actionable therapeutic practices. An advocate for a biopsychosocial approach, Dr. Joe developed PRISM: Pain Recovery and Integrative Systems Model, a cognitive-behavioral approach that promotes resilience, growth, and recovery. Pain Science Education invites listeners to explore a wide array of subjects including pain education, pain neuroscience, physical therapy, physiotherapy, pain psychology, wellness, and continuing education. Episodes feature interviews with leading experts, offering a deep dive into the pivotal topics shaping the field of pain management.The insights shared here aim to propel the practice of physical therapy to the forefront of primary pain management. Dr. Joe Tatta is committed to guiding therapists and healthcare providers through the complexities of pain, equipping them with the knowledge to deliver non-pharmacologic and non-invasive approaches to chronic pain. With Dr. Joe's guidance, listeners will uncover the potential of physical therapists as pivotal figures in pain management, understand the importance of health behavior change, and learn how to use integrative and lifestyle medicine in practice.Join the Pain Science Education podcast to transform your clinical approach, enrich your professional toolkit, and participate in the revolution of pain management. Each episode promises to take you one step closer to learning about pain, becoming a leader in delivering exceptional, innovative care to those suffering with pain, and ultimately improving lives across the globe.

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Recent Episodes
  • The Power of Walking to Prevent Low Back Pain with Tash Pocovi, PhD
    Mar 18, 2025 – 38:33
  • Webinar: Help Your Patients Achieve Nutrition Goals to Manage Pain with Rose Pignataro, PT, DPT, PhD
    Feb 22, 2025 – 55:29
  • TARGETing Back Pain with Psychologically-Informed Physical Therapy with Anthony Delitto, PT, PhD, FAPTA
    Feb 10, 2025 – 57:11
  • Webinar: Mental Health Physical Therapy with Joe Tatta, PT, DPT and Jeremy Fletcher, PT, DPT
    Jan 14, 2025 – 01:17:43
  • Becoming a Mental Health Physical Therapist with Jeremy Fletcher, PT, DPT
    Dec 26, 2024 – 48:08
  • Memory and Pain: What Science Reveals About This Surprising Connection with Anna Waisman, PhD Student
    Dec 9, 2024 – 37:46
  • Hypnosis for Pain Relief with David Spiegel, MD
    Nov 14, 2024 – 34:03
  • The New Science of Pain Science Education with Professor Lorimer Moseley, AO
    Jul 29, 2024 – 01:00:03
  • How Pain Resilience Can Help People Living With Chronic Pain with John (Drew) Sturgeon, PhD
    Jul 15, 2024 – 47:52
  • Psychedelic Medicine: Exploring Their Pain Management Potential with Maya Armstrong, MD
    Jul 1, 2024 – 01:22:17
  • TRE & Neurogenic Movement in Healing Trauma & Pain with Richmond Heath
    Jun 5, 2024 – 39:50
  • Want Better Pain Outcomes? Simplify Pain Science and Develop Easy to Read Materials with Maria Garvey-Caruso, PT, DPT
    May 22, 2024 – 28:12
  • The Integration of Pain Sciences into Physical Therapist Practice with Orit Hickman PT, DPT
    May 6, 2024 – 52:18
  • The Power of Psychologically Informed Physical Therapy with Tawny Kross, PT, DPT
    Apr 29, 2024 – 37:20
  • The Physical Therapist's Role In Managing Psychological Distress And Suicide Prevention With Ryan McGrath
    Apr 10, 2024 – 34:56
  • Transforming Recovery Courts With Exercise To Support Substance Use Disorders With Walter Midkiff And The Honorable H. Lee Harrell
    Apr 3, 2024 – 28:43
  • How PTs Can Help Patients With Medication Reduction & Tapering with Aimee Perron, PT, DPT
    Mar 19, 2024 – 32:01
  • Welcome To The Pain Science Education Podcast With Joe Tatta, PT, DPT
    Mar 12, 2024 – 11:52
  • Delivering Pain Science Education To The Public With Cormac Ryan, PhD
    Mar 12, 2024 – 39:42
  • Episode 324 | Implementation Of Integrated Pain Management Programs: What Do Real-World Experiences Tell Us? With Trevor Lentz, PT, PhD, MPH
    Nov 15, 2023 – 33:54
  • Episode 323 | How To Live With Less Pain With Afton Hasett, PsyD
    Nov 8, 2023 – 37:45
  • Episode 322 | Optimizing Movement And Rethinking Impairment-Based Paradigms With Andrew Guccione, PT, PhD, DPT, FAPTA
    Nov 1, 2023 – 59:15
  • Episode 321 | A Trauma-Informed Approach To Pelvic Pain And Sexual Wellness With Rose Schlaff, PT, DPT, WHC, IF
    Oct 25, 2023 – 41:49
  • Episode 320 | Reviving Resilience And Transforming Trauma With Ray Chen, PT, PhD(c)
    Oct 18, 2023 – 37:52
  • Episode 319 | Exploring The Intersection Of Weight, Race, And Pain With Ericka Merriwether, PT, DPT, PhD
    Oct 4, 2023 – 33:41
  • Episode 318 | Hope As A Therapeutic Intervention For Chronic Pain With Dillon Caswell, PT, DPT, SCS
    Sep 27, 2023 – 30:39
  • Episode 317 | How A Sense Of Purpose Transforms Pain Into Wellness With Stephanie Hooker, PhD
    Sep 6, 2023 – 24:07
  • Episode 316 | The End of Physiotherapy and Re-imaging a New Professional Identity with Dave Nicholls, PhD
    Aug 30, 2023 – 56:09
  • Episode 314 | Pain & Pleasure: Decoding the Dopamine and Chronic Pain Connection with Anna Lembke, MD
    Jun 28, 2023 – 35:37
  • Episode 315 | Inclusive Care: Understanding Trans And LGBTQ+ Health With Alivia Stehlik, PT, DPT
    Jun 22, 2023 – 30:57
  • Breaking Boundaries: Unveiling The Crucial Role Of Physical Therapists In Addiction Recovery With Holly Johnson, PT, DPT
    Jun 14, 2023 – 38:14
  • Episode 312 | New Chronic Pain Approaches With Joe Tatta, PT, DPT
    May 3, 2023 – 17:38
  • Episode 311 | Pelvic Organ Prolapse And Pelvic Pain With Maureen Mason, PT, DPT, WCS
    Apr 19, 2023 – 32:51
  • Episode 310 | Disability, Inclusion & Justice: Why Do We Need To Talk About This? With Winston Kennedy, PT, DPT, PhD
    Apr 12, 2023 – 31:41
  • The Latest On Back Pain And The Role Of Physical Therapy With Julie Fritz, PT, PhD
    Apr 5, 2023 – 26:48
  • The Pain Of Ableism And Disability Prejudice With Michelle Nario-Redmond, PhD
    Mar 29, 2023 – 39:04
  • Episode 307 | The Role Of Breathwork In Nervous System Dysregulation With Campbell Will, Physiotherapist, Breathwork Educator
    Mar 22, 2023 – 31:10
  • Episode 306 | Social Pain, Marginalization and Health Implications with Kenneth D. Craig, OC, PhD
    Mar 15, 2023 – 25:29
  • Episode 305 | Male Pelvic Pain, Erectile Dysfunction, And Prostatitis With Lance Frank, PT, DPT
    Mar 8, 2023 – 41:17
  • Episode 304 | Attitudes, Beliefs, and Biases That Contribute to the Marginalization of People with Pain with Alicia Emerson, PT, DPT, MS, OCS, FAAOMPT
    Feb 22, 2023 – 41:45
  • Episode 303 | Integrating The Lived Experience Of Pain Into Treatment And Research With Joletta Belton
    Feb 15, 2023 – 46:37
  • Episode 302 | Social Determinants of Health in Physical Therapy: Challenges and Opportunities with Laura E. Keyser, PT, DPT, MPH
    Feb 8, 2023 – 26:58
  • Episode 301 | DPT Student Wellness During Curriculum Implementation Of A Lifestyle Medicine Approach With Tessa Wells, PT, DPT And Betsy Becker, PT, DPT, PhD
    Feb 1, 2023 – 23:15
  • Episode 300 | The Embodied Mind: Understanding The Mysteries Of Cellular Intelligence With Thomas R. Verny, MD
    Jan 25, 2023 – 39:42
  • Episode 299| Racial Embodiment and White Body Supremacy in Pain Management with Lisa VanHoose, PT, PhD, MPH, FAAPT, FAPTA
    Jan 11, 2023 – 38:48
  • Episode 298 | Reducing Stress And Burnout In Doctor Of Physical Therapy Students With Psychological Flexibility With Jason Cherry, PT, DPT, EdD
    Jan 4, 2023 – 32:18
  • Episode 297 | Trauma-focused Physical Therapy with April Gamble PT, DPT
    Dec 21, 2022 – 38:34
  • Episode 296 | The Language And Logic Of Chronic Pain With Asaf Weisman, PT, Phd(c)
    Dec 14, 2022 – 55:10
  • Episode 295 | How To Use The Movement System To Treat Pain with Shirley A. Sahrmann, PT, PhD, FAPTA
    Dec 7, 2022 – 34:15
  • Episode 294 | How To Contextualize Care For Improved Outcomes With Gail Jensen, PT, PhD, FAPTA
    Nov 30, 2022 – 39:56
Recent Reviews
  • indigoandgo
    Great resource!
    Pain Science Education is one of my favorite podcasts! And, although I love pain science education (in general), this podcast is really about so much more! Yes, there is lots of science -- but don't worry those of you who aren't big science nerds like myself, Dr. Tatta and his guests make it all very relatable. I'm a physician who works with lots of patients with chronic pain, and I find myself regularly referring to content on this podcast and recommending episodes for my patients. Whether you're a clinician, a person experiencing chronic pain, or just someone who wants to understand pain better, I guarantee that you'll find this podcast useful. There is so much content with a broad range of speakers and topics -- not to mention the links in the show notes. It truly is a valuable resource.
  • Junahdrian
    Hope as a Therapeutic Intervention for Chronic Pain
    As someone with chronic pain, I particularly loved this episode because it focuses on self agency in getting your life and health back. I have worked online with Dr. Tatta, and he was so critical in helping me to understand my pain and overcome the obstacles that were preventing me from walking. In my first group session, he talked about the factors that prevent us from moving forward. Mine was fear. A ton of imaging had made me afraid that I would hurt myself if I tried to walk without a walker. What I learned in that session gave me hope that I could walk again without assistance. My goal for the 6-week course was to be able to walk for 15 minutes without a walker. I had done that after the first session. By the end of the course, I was walking a mile unaided. Having hope eliminated my fear and allowed me to move again. I’m 76 years old and walk 1.25 miles a day or more. I’m so grateful!
  • BAB PT
    Imperative information for all physical therapists
    As PTs, we must advance the science of pain for our patients and other healthcare professionals.
  • Jason Cherry
    Thank you!
    Thank you for having me on the podcast Joe. I am a long time listener and follower of your work so it was exciting to actually be on the podcast. I appreciated the opportunity to share how improving psychological flexibility may help us reduce student burnout and ultimately professional burnout. Thank you for everything you are doing to move the physical therapy profession forward! Jason Cherry
  • RyanWM 8000
    Episode 276 Scotty Butcher
    I loved what Scotty call the “big fish in the pond.” The ability to connect with a client and how to help a client connect with themselves. Exercise technique, expertise, treatment skills, and knowledge are all secondary to helping clients become in touch with themselves to change their stories narrative to a positive one through pain mastery moving forward. Joe’s interviews give a cutting-edge and creative view to the latest pain science and how to apply it.
  • Magic of Motion
    Innovation Collaboration Sensation
    I was super excited to be a guest on this amazing podcast, especially after attending Dr. Tatta's sessions at CSM on nutritions impact on pain. Joe is definitely dedicated to promoting wellness and recognizing disparities influence on pain and its management. Access to healthy foods is one of the many factors that influence the disparities we see in healthcare. As healthcare professionals, we must promote health and wellness literacy to tackle this. Utilizing outreach events are a great way to address this while building a sense of community. Shortly after airing one of Dr. Tatta’s innovators reached out to me about collaboration. This is how we build community and find different ways to address needs. I am now a subscriber to the podcast and excited to hear about more innovations in physical therapy and health promotion! Thank you Dr. Joe Tatta for inviting me to share Explore the Magic of Motion! It was such a pleasure chatting with you!
  • LI*LA*LO
    THANK YOU!!
    I want to thank you for doin what you do because I’m just starting to learn about all of this stuff about pain and to why I’m in so much pain it took seven years to figure out . I diagnosed myself ( thank god) bc my doctors r still trying to figure it out while I’m trying to explain it to them but bc my blood work is normal they r not saying they dnt bet me but r not working hard to help me and I feel lost and that no one around here understand me or believe me to y I am the way I am do to trauma over the past 20 something years later and chronic stress that has never stoped on top of emotional abuse and mulastion my life has been not so well and my body is just getting worse and iv been spending over seven years trying to live , raise my kiddos( single divorced) (cheated on)), work full time ,& in major chronic pain and a lady hit my car while I was at a stop doin about 50 caused my neck pain to wording. To I finally had to stop working to my body finally hv time to break and talk to me I had a huge mental breakdown to start doin research on them then to find research on this topic and a very light bright light was in front of me oh my god THATS IT THATS WHATS GOIN ON W ME:) it was so nice to finally hv a answer to hv my body get worse and no doctor around here to understand me or no how to help me is very frustrating. I thought ok no I no y now time to get better ...NOPE! I NEED SOMEONE TO HELP ME PLS FIND ME HELP! I want to b better ( so I can live my new life happy and use my past life to show awareness on this topic so someone never deals and waits as long as me suffering waiting and to feel no one gets or believes u. Cau u help me?! U r helping me just by me listioning to yur podcast and making me dought myself anymore and that I’m not crazy but yet still I need help I dnt no we’re to start to heal iv done everything I possibly can?!
  • Christine PT
    Tools for pain sufferers and practitioners
    Thank you Dr. Tatta. This podcast always gets me excited about my work with patients and their families. Well articulated guests on a myriad of topics related to pain. Each episode I learn something new. Joe’s guests often inspire me to read more about any particular pain related topic. My favorite episodes include 113, 117, 124, 126, 137, 223.
  • Sean P O'Dea
    Incredibly Powerful and Gave Me Hope
    This episode gave me hope when I had very little and allowed me to cry. I’ve been in and out of physical therapy for the last several years for musculoskeletal pain. The last year and a half have been incredibly hard. My friends and family don’t fully understand what I’m going through physically and mentally, so to hear Dr. Litzy’s story and how she overcame her pain gave me tremendous hope that I could overcome mine too - and I am. Thank you for the inspiration.
  • ArtistJen74
    So helpful for patients and practitioners!
    As a chronic pain patient (Charcot-Marie-Tooth disease, Rheumatoid Arthritis, Fibromyalgia, and chronic migraine), I have found Dr. Joe Tatta’s podcast to be incredibly helpful. I have also recommended it to my pain management doctor, who is always appreciative of any resources I send his way. Thanks so much for continuing to bring forward a diverse array of experts!!
  • rachsobc
    Listen to this podcast
    As a practicing clinician and guest educator, I have found this podcast to be an unbeatable resource. Dr. Joe brings on guests from all over the world and I don’t know how, but each seems to be better than the last! There’s a wealth of knowledge here. If you’ve ever had pain or treated someone with pain, listen to this podcast.
  • Dr MoMo
    Healing pain podcast
    Epic truthful information about pain and how to deal !!!
  • Calla Kaye
    Light at the end of the tunnel
    The knowledge I gain from all of Joe Tatta’s communications, including this podcast, has truly helped me uncover a light at the end of this tunnel of chronic pain. The material he shares and the guests he has are credible, inspiring, and provide a sense of optimism and empowerment that is not easily found in the chronic pain community. I wish that all professionals showed the same level of interest in cutting edge science and research. Joe Tatta and his podcast are a diamond in the rough. @jacquietobin
  • J.MAC13
    Love is pain , and nothing should be
    What an amazing podcast, it makes you really think about how your body works and operates. I have shared this with many countless physical therapist and friends to help them overcome obstacles in their life. Joe articulates pain and the connection to all your different systems at once. Couldn’t be happier to write a glowing review about this.
  • Steve, PT
    Great Content
    As an experienced PT I continue to find great content within the podcast each episode. There’s great diversity of content experts on the show who are very current in their field. There are often useful giveaways too which can enhance learning. Highly recommended for both new and experienced PTs.
  • allimac2002
    Wonderful resource
    I always feel inspired to learn more and be a better practitioner after listening to each episode. Thank you!!
  • BiffDPT
    Always Insightful
    There’s always a lot of great info in this podcast and really enjoy listening!
  • SmartMovesPT
    Great support for patients
    I’m a practicing physical therapist and I recommend this podcast all the time to my patients to help them better understand and manage their condition. Great content , keep up the great work you do for your community Dr. Tatta. Thank you!
  • Juls intune
    authentic
    Dr. Joe truly cares about bringing healing to those who suffer. His message is practical and accessible. I also learn so much from his engaging podcasts. Thank you for all you do Dr. Joe! ❤️
  • sacredhealingyoga
    Wealth of information
    I am a PA-C and Yoga Therapist working in Integrative Chronic Pain Management and listen to this podcast on a regular basis. The interviews and topics cover a wide range and offer great nuggets of info for an increasingly important topic in our world today.
  • HMounts
    Great information
    Every time I listen I learn something new and can immediately apply to my patient population, myself or my tribe.
  • Evelyn Hecht
    Great resource for understanding and healing pain
    Dr Joe Tatta has a gift of finding amazing speakers, researchers, and those interested in healing pain using the biopsychosocial approach. His interviews are always enlightening and Joe does an awesome job of making people feel comfortable so they shine and share even more for his listeners. A must podcast for professionals and patients alike!
  • NikDave#2235
    Dr. Joe
    If you are an integrated practitioner PT, OT, Psychologist, Creative Arts Therapist or Counselor Dr. Joe’s talks will cover your learning needs!
  • Brycen, PT
    Wide Ranging and helpful Information
    As a Physical Therapist who primarily treats patients with persistent pain issues, this podcast has been very helpful to expose me to wide range of ideas from different professions involved in the treatment of pain. @BrycenMoore1
  • Lightdriven
    Great information!
    I’ve been following for quite some time. A lot of information shared you wouldn’t ordinarily hear from your doctor but is extremely important to communicate with them. Thank you so much for making this possible and personally saving me a lot of pain.
  • seattle grandmother
    Grateful
    I am so grateful to Dr Joe Tatta for putting on these podcasts. He and the people that he interviews are full of great info! Thanks!
  • Georgia PT
    Exceptional Podcast!!!!
    Dr. Joe is a wealth of information and this podcast is FULL of PRACTICAL topics and ideas. It addresses a multi-therapeutic approach to pain management which is awesome!!! Great presenters!!!! I am a Travel PT across the Western US and people out there are struggling and need help. Thanks!!!!
  • Bearick
    Great info!
    My father is a PT and he suggested I listen to this. Very informative on all things related to pain relief!
  • Falguni Vashi
    Falguni Vashi PT
    This podcast has helped me treat my persistent pain patients in an effective manner.
  • Lynn MT
    Great resources!
    It’s so great to be empowered to live a better life and return to the activities one once enjoyed. These podcasts cover a wide range of techniques to do just that! Thank you!
  • L Chapman, PT
    Great professional collaborations
    I began listening to this podcast after researching chronic pain management and HIGHLY recommend it to all professionals and patients who treat/interact/manage it. I especially like how Dr. Joe Tatta collaborates with other professions to discuss the broad range of chronic pain. This is very helpful when creating personalized treatment plans for the population as well.
  • Kgbensley
    Evidenced based and applicable
    Dr. Joe does a great job synthesizing the research around pain, mobility, disability, and disease, and gives us interesting information to apply. I am a pediatric physical therapist and find the information useful in my practice as well as my life as I live with a chronic illness. One of the best podcasts in our field! Thank you.
  • LPMoore
    My favorite professional podcast!
    I have been a PT for 25 years and I love this podcast. It keeps me inspired to learn in such a wholistic way to help my clients. Joe is a very thoughtful presenter and is able to breakdown complex topics into useful nuggets to apply right away. We have better ways of helping people’s experience with pain. Joe goes down all the roads and helps me feel confident talking about nutrition, emotion, trauma, self efficacy in the realm of pain science. Joe is a pioneer and leader in the PT world. He is on top of the science and research. These podcasts have improved my skills and guided my continuing education in a direction that has made my work so much more meaningful. Many thanks!
  • Layku
    A great resource
    As a PTA student, this has been a great resource to hear professionals at the top of their game. Joe does a great job of communicating and guiding the listeners through enlightening conversations that will definitely help me in my growth as a healthcare provider. Twitter: @laynekunce
  • Joan Sample
    Multifaceted approach to healing pain
    I really appreciate Joes knowledge, the varied speakers in his podcasts and his multifaceted approach to dealing with pain.
  • DonnaMDKS
    Very informative!!
    As a Nurse Practitioner the informative I have learned from Joe’s podcast have been invaluable! It’s a great resource for me and my patients with chronic pain. I recommend the podcasts and his books DonnaMDKS
  • @e__dubss
    Informative and Practical
    I am a physical therapist in Boston, MA and work with a variety of clients with both musculoskeletal and neurological compromise. I love the Healing Pain podcast because I find the content directly relates to my patient care. The topics discussed touch on so many factors that affect our perception of pain, it feels empowering that there is always something I can be doing as a clinician, or the client themselves can do to improve their situation. It provides a hopeful message while being rooted in science and evidence based medicine.
  • Drbuffcat
    Helping us keep up
    Chronic pain IIs a complex and rapidly moving field. Dr. Joe and his podcasts help us to keep up from his physical therapy perspective, which is becoming more relevant as time passes. Thank you! Tony Buffington Clinical professor UC Davis
  • Alea K.
    DPT students should listen!
    This is a must listen to podcast for DPT students like myself. It goes into more depth and detail which supplements what we learn in school. Highly recommend it!
  • Jeff, DOT, Cert MDT
    Great information
    Great information for those of you who treat or deal with chronic pain. It takes a lot of patience to unwrap the complexity of this issue and this would be a helpful resource for all.
  • Nick R, PTA
    Great source of information!
    Dr. Joe has provided invaluable insight over the years in both his books and CEU programs. This podcast is a great source for anyone in the PT field or interested in learning more about Chronic Pain and what can be done for it!
  • Betsy Todd
    Joe Tata Pain Podcasts
    Thank you for sharing your knowledge and expertise on such an important topic. I have been a physical therapist for 27 years and am always looking for ways to help my chronic pain patients. Through the years I have found that helping them holistically with lifestyle and psychosocial interventions has helped them the most! I am so grateful to you for sharing your functional medicine approach! Thank You!
  • Chris Lester DPT
    Fantastic resource for clinicians and patients
    This podcast has helped improve my confidence in helping people with chronic pain as a physical therapist and I often provide this as a resource for patients who are seeking more information.
  • ald369
    Integrative Pain review
    Joe is well spoken and knowledgeable in an area of healthcare that is in need of leaders in pain rehabilitation. He offers course content in several areas related to the treatment of pain and function that is easy to integrate into physical therapy practice! Highly recommend. (FBook: Anita Davis)
  • barneypt
    Excellent podcast
    Diverse topics, great knowledge base. This podcast is an asset to any therapist.
  • KillaKammm
    This guy is great!
    Listen to this man, he knows what he is talking about!
  • RebeccasJoy
    High-value content compassionately delivered
    Joe delivers excellent content and his interviews are engaging, informative, and packed with value. I am a holistic life coach with a focus on healing pain and stress, so grateful for leaders like Joe! Thank you, Rebecca David
  • Maddy 4
    Episode 192, Neck Pain, Headache and Manual Therapy
    Great topic , very informative.
  • Whatever2.....
    Every Healthcare Professional Needs to Know about Pain Sciende
    Wonderful, accurate information about chronic pain. I wasn't exposed to this much in PT school, at least not enough to appreciate it. Incorporating this into practice gives patients the knowledge and the empowerment they need to heal.
  • sqbuChristine
    Helpful With Seniors
    I work as a coach with seniors with chronic pains. I’ve just started listening to The Healing Pain Podcast and ACT for Chronic Pain. My clients are already benefiting what I’m learning. It has given them a more positive vision of their future possibilities. I’ve been sharing information about the podcast with PT’s and coaches.
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